What Sade wrote in his epic stories.........?
Was he a witness of those orgies and debauches?
Was he a part of the secret sex society?
Did he partake in the killing of his sex objects?
Was he molested as a child?
Did he have sex with children?
Was the high society so corrupt, as described in his books?
Is that's why he was persecuted, and feared?
Did he reveal more then he was allowed to?
Or was it all a fantasy in his head, infused by drugs and alcohol?
Who knows?
It may be one way or the other, but never seize to make us wonder and think on what his stories represent, and how very actual they are even in this day and age.
Was he a witness of those orgies and debauches?
Was he a part of the secret sex society?
Did he partake in the killing of his sex objects?
Was he molested as a child?
Did he have sex with children?
Was the high society so corrupt, as described in his books?
Is that's why he was persecuted, and feared?
Did he reveal more then he was allowed to?
Or was it all a fantasy in his head, infused by drugs and alcohol?
Who knows?
It may be one way or the other, but never seize to make us wonder and think on what his stories represent, and how very actual they are even in this day and age.
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Re: Did it really happen?
Wed, March 24, 2004 - 7:38 PMwell..
I believe he did witness the orgies..it was a common occurance with some of the upper class circles in French society. If it was decadent and over the top , upper french society was all over it like white on rice.
Secret? I don't think it was THAT secret...
I'm iffy on the actual taking of lives...
Molested as a child? I believe that he probably was shown things as a very young boy that no young child should have been and he probably was cohersed into a sexual realtionship because they also were very open sexually and had no qualms with homsexuality or sex with minors...
Corrupt...again with the decadence...
I'm sure that he probably did elaborate on some of these things though as would any writer when they tell a tale. I have made many of the childhood stories my mother told me so much more exciting by addlibbing and she loves how sensational I've made them. Feed the fans and they beg for more and bigger, & larger than life... isn't it all entertainig though? Aren't you drawn in and can't you put yourself there? Can't you feel the electricity he creates and taste the lovely things he feeds you? -
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Re: Did it really happen?
Wed, May 12, 2004 - 4:41 PMI like the way you think!!!!
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Re: Did it really happen?
Mon, April 5, 2004 - 10:37 AMSade wrote multiple manuscripts while imprisoned AND while free. All are written in both french and latin and do have translated versions (most of which are VERY hard to find). Most of the latin actually names names which is more-over to the point of why he was kept "confined" for the safety of the general public by the ruling upper class (which he was in fact a memeber of as well).
There are also documents which list dates and times and the "judge" (forgive me, at the moment the french word for that postion escapes me,) who presided over his trial over the alleged abduction, sodomizing, torture and threatening of several prostitutes from the locale village near his country estate. He was released with minimal charges, because these acts were performed on prostitutes, who were PAID. (You to can find this documentation, you just have to dig deep enough... mainly in the "Archives de Bibliotec Nationale en Paris.")
Where he crossed the line, so-to-speak is when he started persuading the young daughters as well as the wives/mothers of his fellow aristocracy into sex acts and debauchies. Basically, it boils down to the men got jelous of Sade making it with everyone and everything and not being punished for it.
As to your posed questions:
Yes, he did not only witness but was also an active participant in debaucheries. (These were the seeds to which his manuscipts were sewn.)
Yes, he was part of a really "not-so-secret" sex society.
Yes, he did actually kill one prostitute (that we know of).
Yes, he was molested as a child (this truely has no bearing on his later behaviors and there is also documentation backing this up.)
Yes, he had sex with children. (BUT, I must point out that it is our modern scensibilities which define a what a "child" is. He, in reality was having sex with consentual adults, since it was still common practice at this point in time to marry by 10 or 12 and assume adult endevors.) It is only in the 20/21 Centuries that we say a 12 year old is a child, and yet many of our teenagers are practicing sex acts. This is proven over an over again, every day.
Yes, the upper echelon of french society was corrupt. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutly!
Yes, Sade did abuse alcohol and drugs. It is also now theorized that Sade suffered from Migrane headaches, and used alchol and drugs to lessen those physical effects/aliments.
This is all just my theory of course, extracted from prolonged years of research into the enigma that is Sade. -
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Re: Did it really happen?
Mon, April 5, 2004 - 10:05 PMHi Julia!
Nice to see you here...
Well, I myself know most of the info you mentioned.....but thanks anyway because I'm sure the tribe members will learn something new....
However, what I'm puzzling over is something less obvious...
like... I hope you realize that there were and still are a "secret sex societies" in the full sense of this word....?.....
and to my knowledge....it's almost impossible to "get in" unless you are incredibly rich and powerful politically or otherwise a very "important figure"...
The real "sex society" - not the your "next door neighbor" type...
Marquis was not so wealthy, nor was he of any true noble name...he was at the very bottom of the high society...as well as being an openly against the monarchy...his "speech" from "philosophy in the bedroom" was a separate little book at the time of it's release for the purpose of arousing the rebellion against the "upper class"...De Sade was a revolutionare, and that's why he got in Bastille...as well as for crimes against those prostitutes, whom he drugged and "raped"...
But as you've mentioned - he paid for those "services" - thus - his monstrosities don't really count.
I never heard of him actually killing a prostitute, I think - he was wrongly accused for that ...
His "homosexual" adventures were mainly with his valet, with whom he was on the run from the "law" for years...
Now....
the scale and magnitude of his stories makes me wonder
if he indeed experienced some grand escapades....or was it in his imagination(like mine).....where he gave the freedom to his senses...
You cannot really answer it, I think...no one can...
maybe he was envious of all those "filthy rich" people whose sole purpose in life was to have sex and indulge in the other most sweetest of sins...
You know, he was married, and he was not so "brave" with his wife either...
to my knowledge - she gave him trouble and he was somewhat dependent on her...
as for his kids - his son has denounced him and burned his works in front of the commission...to clean his name...even before De Sade died...or right after...don't remember now...
and the fact that Sade was put in the insane asylum was somehow connected to the secrets he unfolded in his books about the people in power...who did commit horrors....
Some people think - Sade is actually a good descent man - who was only trying to fight with the evil in his own way - by unmasking the hypocrisies of his time.....the high society ....church......judicial system...
he was letting the ordinary people know, what went on behind the closed doors of their "superiors" to inspire them to revolt!
And some people think - in his books - De Sade "spilled out" his most intimate desires, opened his soul, and was truly in love with sin.
My theory is - it's both....the first being influenced by the fact that Sade was not accepted in the "in crowd", to get in on the action, because of his poor social stateand his "dirtied name"....so it was his revenge - exposing those who denied him his attempts...
and the second - because, - to love sin - is in every human spirit.
Absolutely everyone can be corrupted.
And for the most part - people don't commit sins, because they can't - from fear of being alienated (like in the case with Sade)or persecuted by laws of society, or they simply can't afford it - having a routine 9-5 lifestyle...
Basically - the beginning of this discussion was not actually me - asking questions( which Sade only could answer), but mainly giving the topics for a discussion on this subject....
So thanks a lot for answering the call... -
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Re: Did it really happen?
Tue, April 6, 2004 - 11:01 AMYes, you do bring up many good points. I figured this was more of discussion thread, rather than a genuine asking for information unknown to you or others.
Also, you are indeed correct that there are, have been and most likely always will be "secret" sex societies. In theory, the majority of the ones in exhistance today are indeed for the upper echelon of society's wealthy.
However, there are two points to work on here. Sade was indeed of noble birth, and the title is the identifier. Now, even though many wealthy thoughout history have been able to purchase a title with acquired wealth, Sade was actually born with his title. Yes he was not wealthy, this in part was due to his father gambling away the family monies.
And it was Sade's wife who cam with money. It was his title which "bought" her, so-to-speak. YES, Sade was very open in his distaste for higher society and the monarchy, this was related in part to the treatment of his father, (due to his gambling addictions).
So he was dependent on his wife for her money, yet there is a very popular theory of the fact that she and he were truely in love, and he did NOT take the adventurous route with her, because she had a "delicate" nature (which I interpret to mean she didn't share his tastes in the sexual arena.)
Yes, he was interred within an insane asylum, this was partly by his choice. It somehow seemed a better choice than the Bastille, which he had already been a resident of for many years. Belive it or not, many hospitals had better living conditions than prisons, but held just as many prisoner's.
He produced numerous "plays" while in the asylum, mainly shorter versions of his now infamous erotic novels. He didn't bother to change names of character's within the stories, which is another reason why the "rich" were pissed off.
He was in fact trying to point out the hypocracy of their world, yet this backfired as most of those who could afford to purchase books and could in fact read were also those same rich he was "slandering".
Again, most of this is all theory and surmised from multiple resourses. You bring up several good points, and I do enjoy verbal banter with others who have enough knowledge about Sade to back up their own theories and discussions.
Shows just how open your mind really is... don't you think? -
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Unsu...
Re: Did it really happen?
Sun, April 18, 2004 - 2:42 PMI enjoyed both of your posts. Whether you are discussing or answering questions, I'm glad you're speaking about it where I can read it.
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Re: Did it really happen?
Tue, May 11, 2004 - 1:00 PMI actually wrote a play that pursued the idea of the "love" between him and his wife. She did physically break him out of prison twice. The prison breaks were more arranged then direct prison breaks but they were illegal. She also fought many times to get him out of jail. I don't think she gave up on him until he did the Spanish daughter thing. I think that broke her heart.
Can you quote some of your sources? I am obviously missing some tasty ones in my repertoire.
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Re: Did it really happen?
Tue, May 11, 2004 - 1:06 PMOh, one thing I disagree with
"...as most of those who could afford to purchase books and could in fact read were also those same rich he was "slandering""
This is the time of the news paper and printing press. While you are correct the literacy level was not what it is today it was growing daily. Also there were many of the "common" people who would read to others and spread the words through oral communication. It is pretty well documented that half the problem with his books is they were printed so cheaply on bad paper and with no covers that they cost very little on the open market. Some compare those cheap novels to porn mags of today and beleive they were consumed by a greedy public much the same. His access to the "Common" man made him more dangerous. -
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Re: Did it really happen?
Fri, May 14, 2004 - 2:38 PMRegardless of whether he witnessed or participated in orgies and various acts of debauchery, whick I'm certain he did, he managed to create some very powerful images and associations within his texts. For that I'm grateful. Thank you Marquis! -
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Re: Did it really happen?
Fri, May 14, 2004 - 11:16 PMI would just like to add that debauchery in the priviledged class is common to all societies, not just the French.
www.geocities.com/newworldo...ormal.html
www.geocities.com/newworldo...court.html
dragoncourt.org
www.royalhouseofstewart.org.uk/dr...htm
www.geocities.com/newworldo...ragonsRant
www.geocities.com/newworldo...kside.html
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Re: Did it really happen?
Mon, July 19, 2004 - 8:20 PMdid it really happen?
Happens all the time, always has and always will..
Sade above all was a firsts class satirist. One of his main goals, as I understand it, was to take the excesses of the aristoracy and blow em up and over the top, in a way that everyone could relate to, ie fuckin....I mean the symbology
of fuckin some poor sucker in the ass while slitting his throat, aint too much of a stretch from what the European ruling class was pretty much up to anyway.....in uh...legal and proper ways of course...Libertines and liberty went hand in hand, free thinking and all that shit. Still goes on,
Lennie Bruce, Ha! Larry Flynt.......Its called 'fucking with the man'. Sade was more or less a raving pansy dressed rock star of his time...He just put it all down, brave, stupid, whatever, his political tracts will put ya to fuckin sleep.
But someone hadda write em....He did get busted for porkin someones daughter or somthing, but like I said, he only got tossed in jail for pissing off the king and shit.
I mean lets not forget that he had oh...a couple of thousand years of pretty serious debauchery behind him when he wrote it....fucking eveyone did all that shit......he just made it into a comic book.
